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 Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site

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Cracked Atlas
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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:10 pm

I think we can be fairly civil without the need of rules. Regardless, at this point votes need to be unanimous to adopt, and as such I believe that this rule fails to take effect.

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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:44 pm

Yeah, but we still need all votes to come through to determine how many points he gets.

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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:52 pm

Right, well, in that case, I vote to adopt 302.

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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:19 pm

Adopt rule 302
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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:06 pm

Seeing as no-one's commented, I assume that you all need these three rules pointed out to you:
Quote :
202: One turn consists of two parts in this order: (1) proposing one rule-change and having it voted on, and (2) subtracting 291 from the ordinal number of their proposal and multiply the result by the fraction of favorable votes it received, rounded to the nearest integer. (This yields a number between 0 and 10 for the first player, with the upper limit increasing by one each turn; more points are awarded for more popular proposals.)

204: If and when rule-changes can be adopted without unanimity, the players who vote against winning proposals shall receive 10 points each.

206: When a proposed rule-change is defeated, the player who proposed it loses 10 points.
So he gained seven points and lost ten.

Cracked, your turn.

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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:06 pm

I propose Rule 302: "When player is caught breaking one of the rules, he or she forfeits their next turn. If a player is caught breaking a rule before their forfeited turn has passed, they forfeit their ability to vote on rule changes until their forfeited turn has passed. If a player breaking a rule before a their forfeited tun has passed, and they have already forfeited their ability to vote, they are immediately disqualified from the game."

Feel free to offer up changes to this one, if you feel it needs to be made more fair.

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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:57 pm

Sounds fair to me.

Vote to Adopt Rule 302

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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:57 pm

Adopt Rule 302
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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:57 pm

Two changes and I'll accept.

1)
Quote :
108: Each proposed rule-change shall be given a number for reference. The numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule-change proposed in the proper way shall receive the next successive integer, whether or not the proposal is adopted.

If a rule is repealed and re-enacted, it receives the number of the proposal to re-enact it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it receives the number of the proposal to amend or transmute it. If an amendment is amended or repealed, the entire rule of which it is a part receives the number of the proposal to amend or repeal the amendment.
So it's 303, not 302.

2)
Quote :
210: If two or more mutable rules conflict with one another, or if two or more immutable rules conflict with one another, then the rule with the lowest ordinal number takes precedence.

If at least one of the rules in conflict explicitly says of itself that it defers to another rule (or type of rule) or takes precedence over another rule (or type of rule), then such provisions shall supersede the numerical method for determining precedence.

If two or more rules claim to take precedence over one another or to defer to one another, then the numerical method again governs.
I'd recommend putting in something like "This rule takes precedence over rule 201".

Uh, there's also 'double-punishment' potential due to rule 101, which you may wanna fix, but it wouldn't prevent me from voting for it. (Rule 101's a rule against breaking rules, so technically breaking any rule also breaks rule 101, so you instantly take both penalties of the propose 303)

I think I've actually memorized the initial rules. Not the numbers yet though *sadface*

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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:58 pm

EBWOP: proposed

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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:12 pm

I repropose Rule 303: "When player is caught breaking one of the rules, he or she forfeits their next turn. If a player is caught breaking a rule before their forfeited turn has passed, they forfeit their ability to vote on rule changes until their forfeited turn has passed. If a player breaking a rule before a their forfeited tun has passed, and they have already forfeited their ability to vote, they are immediately disqualified from the game. This rule takes precedence over rule 210. Breaking Rule 101 incurs no penalty of any sort from this Rule (303)"

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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:19 am

Actually, "This rule takes precedence over any other rule governing the ability to vote and to conduct one's turn". Iwoke up and realised that it also conflicts with rule 105, and I can see future conflict arising.

I considered not warning you so as to abuse it later, but decided that would be mean.

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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:21 am

FTR, I'm not planning on doing any bithcy rule abuse until about fifty turns into the game.

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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:52 am

My turn or are we still voting for atlas's re proposed rule?
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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:20 pm

I rerepropose Rule 303: "When player is caught breaking one of the rules, he or she forfeits their next turn. If a player is caught breaking a rule before their forfeited turn has passed, they forfeit their ability to vote on rule changes until their forfeited turn has passed. If a player breaking a rule before a their forfeited tun has passed, and they have already forfeited their ability to vote, they are immediately disqualified from the game. This rule takes precedence over any other rule governing the ability to vote and to conduct one's turn. Breaking Rule 101 incurs no penalty of any sort from this Rule (303)"

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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:53 am

Sure, I'm good with that.

I vote to adopt rule 303.

Sorry about the hold-up guys, but you really didn't want that rule abused.

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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:35 pm

Understandable.

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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:04 pm

Just realised that technically, Beese recieved 3/4 of the votes (he himself was a voter), so he recieved 11*(3/4) -- 10 points, not 11*(2/3) -- 10 points. Or, for the non-mathematical of you, --2 points, not --3 points.

Me: 10
Beese: --2
Cracked: 12
Navarre: 0

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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:00 pm

I propose rule 304

No player may request or accept outside help/assistance from anybody outside the game and outside amiabanana. If the player is caught getting outside assistance they receive -10 points. This applies to facebook, other forums etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:18 pm

Oh man, I'm gonna be the grinch of this game, aren't I?.

I agree on principal. However, I have a few issues with it.

1) Unenforcability, too hard to get caught.
2) This is a first-time game, it's entirely understandable if people need some help with it.
3) Definition of 'outside assistance'. Is reading articles on Nomic 'outside assistance'? Is asking for clarification of the initial rules from an experienced player 'outside assistance'?

So yeah, rejecting.

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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:45 am

1337ness make a good point. Say someone reads a forum post with a few choice rules/ rule changes. The only way another player has of knowing it's origin is if they also read the forum posts.

Rejected.

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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:50 pm

Agreed to both Atlas and 1337ness, Rejected.

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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:40 pm

Formal protest. Beese is sheeping
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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:43 pm

Protest noted, however "Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or implicitly permits it." So there's nothing you can do about it anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: Vanilla Four Player; First Nomic On Site   Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:39 am

*amused* It's quite hard to make a rule against sheeping anyway. Sometimes sheeping's good, othertimes bad, and sometimes people don't sheep but merely agree with other people for slightly different reasons.

Anyway, that's (1/4)*13 -- 10 = --7

Me: 10
Beese: --2
Cracked: 12
Navarre: --7

My hillturn.

Drawing attention to this because someone will forget
Quote :
203: A rule-change is adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters. If this rule is not amended by the end of the second complete circuit of turns, it automatically changes to require only a simple majority.
So, it's now a mere majority required to pass rules.

I propose a slight overhaul of the layout of the ruleset

I propose "304: After a proposal has been passed, the rule is to be added to the immutable rules list if immutable, and the mutable rules list if mutable, and take on the number one more than the rule preceding it on the list".

May require some discussion.

Bear in mind that while in proposal stage, proposals are unaffected by this rule.

I suppose I should specify that I'm voting in favour of this rule, but no-one else has, and it seems somewhat obvious.

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